State of the Art Expansion

[zvenx]

and in the end, I guess those who like it and are fine with the current model will buy it and those of us who don't will not.
I bought Electronic expansion bank when it first came out and I don't think I have used it once, I still revert back to the factory bank most of the time.
I am happy with most of the patches I have bought for other products in that interim, and I certainly didn't pay $69 for any (well maybe except some NI products).
To each his own.....
But there is a reason why most other developers use a different business model. As re_mute said:

Features=paid upgrade.

Sounds=Expansion/soundbank.

except of course: spectrasonics in which case there is an initial higher cost but they threw in the kitchen sink at every opportunity at no additional cost, this by far is my personal favourite, with U-he a close second, where he doesn't have that high initial cost and keeps adding features at no additional cost and third part banks which are just sounds at a price.

rsp

[Bastiaan van Noord]

and in the end, I guess those who like it and are fine with the current model will buy it and those of us who don't will not.

Basically that is what it comes down to, although we'd rather see everybody agree or satisfied with everything we release, it's unfortunately impossible to do.

I bought Electronic expansion bank when it first came out and I don't think I have used it once, I still revert back to the factory bank most of the time.
I am happy with most of the patches I have bought for other products in that interim, and I certainly didn't pay $69 for any (well maybe except some NI products).
To each his own.....

For what it's worth, most if not all of the companies I see mentioned, offer similar (presets only) products at a comparable or higher price. The expansion pack features were always meant as an extra, with the presets being the main ingredient, with that in mind I would personally rather offer or purchase a preset pack with a bit of extra, instead of solely presets for the same or even higher price.

I do understand the request for a feature only expansion pack and we will look into the feasibility of this, though I reckon it will a hard sell for those who would rather see the features in a free update.

But there is a reason why most other developers use a different business model. As re_mute said:

Features=paid upgrade.

Sounds=Expansion/soundbank.

There is not much I can say or speculate about other company's business models, but I will say that just because the business model is not working out for some, doesn't automatically mean that the business model is flawed.

However, we will take all suggestions in consideration for future products and appreciate all feedback provided so far. We are learning along the way and just like with any other small audio software company out there, there's probably plenty of room for improvements.

[zippo]

If additional features would be sold as a separate product, the sound designers could make use of them in their soundsets, because not every user owns the feature expansion.

I think that the current solution is great and simple for the user:
Additional sounds which are bundeled with features and waveforms which extend the sonic range. I do not have to load a soundbank and get direct access with the browser.

Most users do not build their own sounds. I worked for a company who also repaired hardware synths. 90% of them came back with the factory patches. That's why a feature-only expansion won't sell well. What most users want is a good selection of ready-to-use sounds that can be loaded with a mouse click. And that's exactly what Tone2 delivers.

[zvenx]

Not sure if I agree with your first paragraph, although granted in these two scenarios the updates were free.
But I know they are banks from CA's Alchemy that require v1.11 and above, and in U-he's Zebra2, BT bank requires Zebra 2.5 and above.
In other words preset developers can specify what version of G2 would be required to play their soundbank.
rsp

[zippo]

Sorry. But the Alchemy soundsets are much lower quality than the Gladiator expansions. Most stuff is only samples. Besides that they cost EUR 49, contain only 150 sounds and conatin no additional features. This makes a price 32 cent per pacth. The Gladiatzor expansion is 16 cent per patch.

In general Alchemy or Zebra offer lower sound quality and worse factory content than Gladiator.

If i have the choice between

1) sounds only (soundset)
or
2) sounds + additonal features (expansion)

for the same price, i'd take the second one, because i get more for my money.

Bastiaan has also mentioned that he is working on a soundset for Gladiator2. So the customers will also have the choice between:

1) soundsset
or
2) expansion = soundset + features

[zvenx]

Different strokes for different folks, but I disagree with you 180 degrees. I find use for the Alchemy soundsets, have you heard the Big tone bank for instance?

Zebra as well? clearly we  have very very VERY different tastes.....
good luck to you.
rsp

Sorry. But the Alchemy soundsets are much lower quality than the Gladiator expansions. Most stuff is only samples. Besides that they cost EUR 49, contain only 150 sounds and conatin no additional features. This makes a price 32 cent per pacth. The Gladiatzor expansion is 16 cent per patch.

In general Alchemy or Zebra offer lower sound quality and worse factory content than Gladiator.

If i have the choice between

1) sounds only (soundset)
or
2) sounds + additonal features (expansion)

for the same price, i'd take the second one, because i get more for my money.

Bastiaan has also mentioned that he is working on a soundset for Gladiator2. So the customers will also have the choice between:

1) soundsset
or
2) expansion = soundset + features

[Bastiaan van Noord]

Quality, value, beauty and all that, it's really in the eye of the beholder isn't it Beside that, I'd rather not see this become a discussion of competitors products.

People should purchase whatever clicks with them, we try to do our best to deliver good quality products and Im sure Ben en Urs try do the same.

The next two Gladiator 2 preset sets by me will indeed be presets only and should hopefully end up well received.

[zvenx]

Quality, value, beauty and all that, it's really in the eye of the beholder isn't it Beside that, I'd rather not see this become a discussion of competitors products.

you are right.
sorry.
rsp

[Bastiaan van Noord]

Quality, value, beauty and all that, it's really in the eye of the beholder isn't it Beside that, I'd rather not see this become a discussion of competitors products.

you are right.
sorry.
rsp

No need to say sorry it wasn't directed at you, but more a general let's not go into the whole 'this dev. does this better or worse then that dev' kind of thing.

[re_mute]

The next two Gladiator 2 preset sets by me will indeed be presets only and should hopefully end up well received.

Will they be usable by customers who haven't bought any/a particular expansions?

[Bastiaan van Noord]

The next two Gladiator 2 preset sets by me will indeed be presets only and should hopefully end up well received.

Will they be usable by customers who haven't bought any/a particular expansions?

Yes, none of the presets will use expansion exclusive features.

I accidently hit modify instead of quote on your message btw, hence the 'edited by' part...duh

[re_mute]

The next two Gladiator 2 preset sets by me will indeed be presets only and should hopefully end up well received.

Will they be usable by customers who haven't bought any/a particular expansions?

Yes, none of the presets will use expansion exclusive features.

I accidently hit modify instead of quote on your message btw, hence the 'edited by' part...duh

Excellent news, thanks.

[Fido_X]

Thanks for this expansion !

Generally, i found new stuff - new inspiration, always welcomed 

[dburns]

True, you do "unlock" more features when you buy Glad expansions. But I don't view it as paying for the new features twice (as you add expansions) any more than I view using the original features within an expansion as "paying for the same thing twice." You may buy many expansions that use a certain osc/waveform, but that doesn't mean you should get a discount for that osc in future sound sets. Unlocking content is really a bonus of buying the new patches, not a scheme to take your money.

Besides, any company has to find ways to keep revenue coming in after the initial sale. NI is doing it with Kore Sound Packs, many of which use existing features of the Kore (and underlying synths) engine. Nobody is complaining that they are "re-selling" the features that already exist in their software. Instead, I am happy to see new ways to apply those features and the patches that are built on them.

Tone2's system is a little different because of the concept of "unlocking" features that are dormant in the basic version, but I don't see it as deceptive. It's just a different way of delivering more performance for users who want to pay for it thru expansions.

[GeorgeZ]

^ Yes, fair enough, but there's two sides to a dime. I, don't use patches. I don't download patches, and I certainly don't pay for them. Granted, now and then I'll find one that's a good starting point, but that's usually it (..and is happens way to little for me to suddenly jump on the preset wagon). The init button on 99% of my synths (and most of mine have it, purchase criteria for me actually) are worn out from the amount of use that they get... Now, I'd like some new filters and oscillator wave forms for one of my FAVOURITE synths (G2 of course, it's one in a million to me Wouldn't ever dream of selling it...). Buy patches and get the oscillator wave forms etc free? No thanks. That seems like money wasted to me personally, cause I'm not interested in the actual "product" being sold. Just my 2c.

T2 do however have a business model that they're upholding and adhering to, that is their business, and I have no issues with how they want to do things. I just think this model needs to include the needs of the non-preset riders. G2 isn't a simple synth, and few noobs would just dish cash out for it on a whim, so I'd imagine there'd be a fair amount of G2 users out there with a good enough synth knowledge, that they wouldn't need to depend on presets. I shouldn't be disadvantaged because I don't use presets.

And yes, it's easy to say "just buy the presets, and you have what you want", but this doesn't sound like value for money to me, considering my comments further up...

-GeorgeZ