Hi, I was hoping an official thread would have started and I would have piggy backed on it. As some may know a new Gladiator 2 soundbank (http://www.tone2.com/html/state_of_art.html) was released today....
I have two comments:
1) I really think you guys should encourage third party sound developers to create banks and make it easy for them to be able to integrate their sounds in your bank as you currently do not, it replaces not adds.. Quite frankly you use more or the less the same ppl and quite frankly all your sound banks sound more or less the same... I didn't buy the last one and most l likely will not buy this one...maybe if there were on sales yes, but not at $69...it is time for new sounds for this baby imho.
2) some of us had asked for a way to get all the new filters and effects in the last three banks (well I have the first one) at a reduced price without the presets... I am still very much interested in that.
thanks
rsp
I have one question about this expansion. Is it something that adds new functionality to the existing plugin or is it an "unlocks stuff that's already there" expansion?
i'd really like to compile a soundbank for Gladiator, but when i make sounds, i don't remember, which feature is just available in an expansion and which one can i use to satisfy the core users. I stopped 8) and so i'm a bit impatient and i don't want to stop tweaking, when i need these :-[ 'which is for which' informations.
I like especially Bastiaan's stuff a lot, but some new colours ;D ...
:-*
Quote from: Budbertzerofluff on March 17, 2010, 04:14:59 PM
I have one question about this expansion. Is it something that adds new functionality to the existing plugin or is it an "unlocks stuff that's already there" expansion?
Hi Budbertzerofluff,
Like previous expansions, it unlocks content.
Quote from: zvenx on March 17, 2010, 04:10:10 PM
Hi, I was hoping an official thread would have started and I would have piggy backed on it. As some may know a new Gladiator 2 soundbank (http://www.tone2.com/html/state_of_art.html) was released today....
Hi Zvenx,
No problem starting a thread here :)
Quote
I have two comments:
1) I really think you guys should encourage third party sound developers to create banks and make it easy for them to be able to integrate their sounds in your bank as you currently do not, it replaces not adds.. Quite frankly you use more or the less the same ppl and quite frankly all your sound banks sound more or less the same... I didn't buy the last one and most l likely will not buy this one...maybe if there were on sales yes, but not at $69...it is time for new sounds for this baby imho.
There are some sound products in the pipeline that involve new designers, several products released through NoiseWork as well, although I reckon that's not the third party you referred to :)
I agree third party releases lack when it comes to HCM/Gladiator, I'm sure we could see if there's something we could do about that, do you have any specific third party sound designers you'd want to hear sounds from?
Quote
2) some of us had asked for a way to get all the new filters and effects in the last three banks (well I have the first one) at a reduced price without the presets... I am still very much interested in that.
thanks
rsp
As I mentioned before it's an interesting idea, but one that would be quite difficult to execute without stepping on customer's toes.
Quote from: mellotronaut on March 17, 2010, 07:47:50 PM
i'd really like to compile a soundbank for Gladiator, but when i make sounds, i don't remember, which feature is just available in an expansion and which one can i use to satisfy the core users. I stopped 8) and so i'm a bit impatient and i don't want to stop tweaking, when i need these :-[ 'which is for which' informations.
I like especially Bastiaan's stuff a lot, but some new colours ;D ...
:-*
Thanks Chris :)
If you want to program patches for Gladiator and are not sure which features are expansion exclusive, temporarily remove the expansion's keyfile(s) from the Gladiator folder (PC) or from the "/Library/Audio/Plug-ins/" folder (Mac) and reload Gladiator.
Be sure to back them up! and when you need them again, copy them back to the proper folders.
I'm simply not going to be buying this - I've already bought the filters and extra distortion with the last soundbank etc - why am I being asked to pay for them again?
It's such an ill-thought out scheme - how did Tone2 not see users being pissed off at paying for "features" over and over again?
And just how many different soundbanks are there going to be before you work out that scrolling endlessly through patches gets *really* very quickly.
I'll happily pay for an update that delivers a decent, tagging/star-based browser which enables me to create and save my own banks.
I'd pay for an Ian Boddy soundbank.
Not together though; I'm done with this stupid system, no more money from me.
I am pretty much feeling the same way that re_mute feels.the current system does not work for me and I am very oppose to it, and will sure my displeasure financially....
I would love to see a Big Tone, Himalaya and an Arksun bank to name a few......as it is I feel you guys are regurgitating the old things over and over.
I would happily pay for extra features without the same presets over and over....
rsp
The 'State of Art' expansion constains exclusive content and features which are not available in any other expansion:
- A selection of 315 inspiring, unique presets aimed at miscellaneous genres of electronic music
- 26 additional waves for OSC5
We received more than 1000(!) patches from 8 sound designers. Only the best 315 were selected. That's why we first annouced it as a best-of-selection.
The filter, distortion and effect types are also available in the dance&trance expansion. Our sound designers requested these features for the expansion, because they wanted to have more creative resources and a larger sonic range for the sound design of this product. Besides that several users have requested a better cross-version-compatibility for custom sounds.
Please do also note that most soundbanks of competing products or 3rd party sound designers contain only 128 patches (with lower quality?) and no additional features at all.
If you are not convinced by the quality of our product, we can recommend that you download the mp3 demo from here:
http://www.tone2.com/Tone2_Gladiator2_State_Of_Art_Expansion.mp3 (http://www.tone2.com/Tone2_Gladiator2_State_Of_Art_Expansion.mp3)
Best Regards,
Markus Feil
Markus I did listen to the demo, that's why to me it sounded like more of the same.
rsp
edit: dont' think I had heard that particuliar demo before now, although they are some very interesting sounds in it, not sure if for me it is worth $69, and I am taken a stance because of the principle of the additional features model....
rsp
That is perhaps the key point; The worth of such expansions etc is what you personally can get from them.
For myself, I have found I have gotten far more 'worth' from the Gladiator expansions than I have from expansions for other competing VST products.
I do agree with you, one can only judge or one should only judge for one's own circumstances.
rsp
Quote from: Bastiaan van Noord on March 17, 2010, 08:41:40 PM
Quote from: mellotronaut on March 17, 2010, 07:47:50 PM
i'd really like to compile a soundbank for Gladiator, but when i make sounds, i don't remember, which feature is just available in an expansion and which one can i use to satisfy the core users. I stopped 8) and so i'm a bit impatient and i don't want to stop tweaking, when i need these :-[ 'which is for which' informations.
I like especially Bastiaan's stuff a lot, but some new colours ;D ...
:-*
Thanks Chris :)
If you want to program patches for Gladiator and are not sure which features are expansion exclusive, temporarily remove the expansion's keyfile(s) from the Gladiator folder (PC) or from the "/Library/Audio/Plug-ins/" folder (Mac) and reload Gladiator.
Be sure to back them up! and when you need them again, copy them back to the proper folders.
:lamp: never thought about this simple time saver ??? :) Thanks, Bastiaan! :-*
Quote from: Markus Feil on March 18, 2010, 09:40:11 AM
The filter, distortion and effect types are also available in the dance&trance expansion.
Yes, which I've already bought. So why do I not get a discount for this new expansion?
And the next expansion is going to have to have them in as well, yes - and the next and the next...how many times are your customers going to pay for the same features?
What about customers who want the features but don't want the sounds?
How did you not think this through?
This isn't how Spectrasonics or NI or REFX or Camel Audio or Linplug or any of your competitors do business simply because it *pisses off customers*.
Features=paid upgrade.
Sounds=Expansion/soundbank.
You've got the good customer service bit down after all this time and after building up a negative reputation and now you're pissing it away with these bizarre and backward thinking business practices.
I have bought all 3 expansions and am very satisfied with it. The quality of the patches is much higher than from competing products. There are no duplicates, gap fillers or random button crap like you can find in many competitor's crap soundbanks. All patches are musically usefull and ther are many sounds that i have not heared in any other synth before.
Tone2 did excellent value for money and great support.
@re_mute:
You behave like a pork. You try to put a knife to the developers's kneck and *force* him to do it your way. And you try to force him to give you discount - otherwise you threaten him and write bullshit in the forum.
If i was you i and i wanted discount i would kindly ask him in private by email rather than threatening the developer. ;-)
I was one of the guys who have requested a better cross version compatibility in the past. Markus provided great support and implemeted my feature request.
Now you come here and complain about it. He simply can't do right for everyone.
Please note that there are also other customers like me with different feature requests that yours.
Get realistic: It's 315 patches for EUR 49. That's 15 cent per patch. Besides that you get a large number of new waveforms for the OSC5. These are not part of any other expansion. The value for money is excellent and i really enjoy this product.
and in the end, I guess those who like it and are fine with the current model will buy it and those of us who don't will not.
I bought Electronic expansion bank when it first came out and I don't think I have used it once, I still revert back to the factory bank most of the time.
I am happy with most of the patches I have bought for other products in that interim, and I certainly didn't pay $69 for any (well maybe except some NI products).
To each his own.....
But there is a reason why most other developers use a different business model. As re_mute said:
QuoteFeatures=paid upgrade.
Sounds=Expansion/soundbank.
except of course: spectrasonics in which case there is an initial higher cost but they threw in the kitchen sink at every opportunity at no additional cost, this by far is my personal favourite, with U-he a close second, where he doesn't have that high initial cost and keeps adding features at no additional cost and third part banks which are just sounds at a price.
rsp
Quote from: zvenx on March 19, 2010, 01:42:03 PM
and in the end, I guess those who like it and are fine with the current model will buy it and those of us who don't will not.
Basically that is what it comes down to, although we'd rather see everybody agree or satisfied with everything we release, it's unfortunately impossible to do.
Quote
I bought Electronic expansion bank when it first came out and I don't think I have used it once, I still revert back to the factory bank most of the time.
I am happy with most of the patches I have bought for other products in that interim, and I certainly didn't pay $69 for any (well maybe except some NI products).
To each his own.....
For what it's worth, most if not all of the companies I see mentioned, offer similar (presets only) products at a comparable or higher price. The expansion pack features were always meant as an extra, with the presets being the main ingredient, with that in mind I would personally rather offer or purchase a preset pack with a bit of extra, instead of solely presets for the same or even higher price.
I do understand the request for a feature only expansion pack and we will look into the feasibility of this, though I reckon it will a hard sell for those who would rather see the features in a free update.
Quote
But there is a reason why most other developers use a different business model. As re_mute said:
Features=paid upgrade.
Sounds=Expansion/soundbank.
There is not much I can say or speculate about other company's business models, but I will say that just because the business model is not working out for some, doesn't automatically mean that the business model is flawed.
However, we will take all suggestions in consideration for future products and appreciate all feedback provided so far. We are learning along the way and just like with any other small audio software company out there, there's probably plenty of room for improvements.
If additional features would be sold as a separate product, the sound designers could make use of them in their soundsets, because not every user owns the feature expansion.
I think that the current solution is great and simple for the user:
Additional sounds which are bundeled with features and waveforms which extend the sonic range. I do not have to load a soundbank and get direct access with the browser.
Most users do not build their own sounds. I worked for a company who also repaired hardware synths. 90% of them came back with the factory patches. That's why a feature-only expansion won't sell well. What most users want is a good selection of ready-to-use sounds that can be loaded with a mouse click. And that's exactly what Tone2 delivers.
Not sure if I agree with your first paragraph, although granted in these two scenarios the updates were free.
But I know they are banks from CA's Alchemy that require v1.11 and above, and in U-he's Zebra2, BT bank requires Zebra 2.5 and above.
In other words preset developers can specify what version of G2 would be required to play their soundbank.
rsp
Sorry. But the Alchemy soundsets are much lower quality than the Gladiator expansions. Most stuff is only samples. Besides that they cost EUR 49, contain only 150 sounds and conatin no additional features. This makes a price 32 cent per pacth. The Gladiatzor expansion is 16 cent per patch.
In general Alchemy or Zebra offer lower sound quality and worse factory content than Gladiator.
If i have the choice between
1) sounds only (soundset)
or
2) sounds + additonal features (expansion)
for the same price, i'd take the second one, because i get more for my money.
Bastiaan has also mentioned that he is working on a soundset for Gladiator2. So the customers will also have the choice between:
1) soundsset
or
2) expansion = soundset + features
Different strokes for different folks, but I disagree with you 180 degrees. I find use for the Alchemy soundsets, have you heard the Big tone bank for instance?
Zebra as well? clearly we have very very VERY different tastes.....
good luck to you.
rsp
Quote from: zippo on March 19, 2010, 03:49:25 PM
Sorry. But the Alchemy soundsets are much lower quality than the Gladiator expansions. Most stuff is only samples. Besides that they cost EUR 49, contain only 150 sounds and conatin no additional features. This makes a price 32 cent per pacth. The Gladiatzor expansion is 16 cent per patch.
In general Alchemy or Zebra offer lower sound quality and worse factory content than Gladiator.
If i have the choice between
1) sounds only (soundset)
or
2) sounds + additonal features (expansion)
for the same price, i'd take the second one, because i get more for my money.
Bastiaan has also mentioned that he is working on a soundset for Gladiator2. So the customers will also have the choice between:
1) soundsset
or
2) expansion = soundset + features
Quality, value, beauty and all that, it's really in the eye of the beholder isn't it :) Beside that, I'd rather not see this become a discussion of competitors products.
People should purchase whatever clicks with them, we try to do our best to deliver good quality products and Im sure Ben en Urs try do the same.
The next two Gladiator 2 preset sets by me will indeed be presets only and should hopefully end up well received.
Quote from: Bastiaan van Noord on March 19, 2010, 04:04:14 PM
Quality, value, beauty and all that, it's really in the eye of the beholder isn't it :) Beside that, I'd rather not see this become a discussion of competitors products.
you are right.
sorry.
rsp
Quote from: zvenx on March 19, 2010, 04:23:30 PM
Quote from: Bastiaan van Noord on March 19, 2010, 04:04:14 PM
Quality, value, beauty and all that, it's really in the eye of the beholder isn't it :) Beside that, I'd rather not see this become a discussion of competitors products.
you are right.
sorry.
rsp
No need to say sorry :) it wasn't directed at you, but more a general let's not go into the whole 'this dev. does this better or worse then that dev' kind of thing.
Quote from: Bastiaan van Noord on March 19, 2010, 04:04:14 PM
The next two Gladiator 2 preset sets by me will indeed be presets only and should hopefully end up well received.
Will they be usable by customers who haven't bought any/a particular expansions?
Quote from: re_mute on March 19, 2010, 05:21:40 PM
Quote from: Bastiaan van Noord on March 19, 2010, 04:04:14 PM
The next two Gladiator 2 preset sets by me will indeed be presets only and should hopefully end up well received.
Will they be usable by customers who haven't bought any/a particular expansions?
Yes, none of the presets will use expansion exclusive features.
I accidently hit modify instead of quote on your message btw, hence the 'edited by' part...duh
Quote from: Bastiaan van Noord on March 19, 2010, 05:31:05 PM
Quote from: re_mute on March 19, 2010, 05:21:40 PM
Quote from: Bastiaan van Noord on March 19, 2010, 04:04:14 PM
The next two Gladiator 2 preset sets by me will indeed be presets only and should hopefully end up well received.
Will they be usable by customers who haven't bought any/a particular expansions?
Yes, none of the presets will use expansion exclusive features.
I accidently hit modify instead of quote on your message btw, hence the 'edited by' part...duh
Excellent news, thanks.
Thanks for this expansion !
Generally, i found new stuff - new inspiration, always welcomed ;)
True, you do "unlock" more features when you buy Glad expansions. But I don't view it as paying for the new features twice (as you add expansions) any more than I view using the original features within an expansion as "paying for the same thing twice." You may buy many expansions that use a certain osc/waveform, but that doesn't mean you should get a discount for that osc in future sound sets. Unlocking content is really a bonus of buying the new patches, not a scheme to take your money.
Besides, any company has to find ways to keep revenue coming in after the initial sale. NI is doing it with Kore Sound Packs, many of which use existing features of the Kore (and underlying synths) engine. Nobody is complaining that they are "re-selling" the features that already exist in their software. Instead, I am happy to see new ways to apply those features and the patches that are built on them.
Tone2's system is a little different because of the concept of "unlocking" features that are dormant in the basic version, but I don't see it as deceptive. It's just a different way of delivering more performance for users who want to pay for it thru expansions.
:)
^ Yes, fair enough, but there's two sides to a dime. I, don't use patches. I don't download patches, and I certainly don't pay for them. Granted, now and then I'll find one that's a good starting point, but that's usually it (..and is happens way to little for me to suddenly jump on the preset wagon). The init button on 99% of my synths (and most of mine have it, purchase criteria for me actually) are worn out from the amount of use that they get... Now, I'd like some new filters and oscillator wave forms for one of my FAVOURITE synths (G2 of course, it's one in a million to me :P Wouldn't ever dream of selling it...). Buy patches and get the oscillator wave forms etc free? No thanks. That seems like money wasted to me personally, cause I'm not interested in the actual "product" being sold. Just my 2c.
T2 do however have a business model that they're upholding and adhering to, that is their business, and I have no issues with how they want to do things. I just think this model needs to include the needs of the non-preset riders. G2 isn't a simple synth, and few noobs would just dish cash out for it on a whim, so I'd imagine there'd be a fair amount of G2 users out there with a good enough synth knowledge, that they wouldn't need to depend on presets. I shouldn't be disadvantaged because I don't use presets.
And yes, it's easy to say "just buy the presets, and you have what you want", but this doesn't sound like value for money to me, considering my comments further up...
-GeorgeZ